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Deb Wybron An interview with Christians for an Ethical Society
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About ACT Women and Prisons Group
Date page last updated 02-Mar-2011
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Deb Wybron represents the ACT Women and Prisons Group on the ACT Community Coalition of Corrections. This interview was conducted in May 2008 as part of the CES series of forums on prisons.
Interview:
CES: Currently ACT women are incarcerated in NSW prisons. Are there many ACT women in NSW prisons?
Deb: Most ACT women in NSW prisons are in Sydney - Emu Plains and Mullawa or at Berrima. Corrective Services statistics show there is an average of 6.6 women from the ACT at any one time in prison in NSW but it is acknowledged that numbers are now increasing.
CES: Do many of these women need assistance when they are released or does the prison just close the door on them?
Deb: On release, if a woman can’t organize her own transport, she will generally, but not always, be given her bus fare back to Canberra. She also gets a slip of paper to say who she is and when she presents this to Social Security she is entitled to half of a normal fortnightly benefit to cover 3 weeks. There is an expectation that after 3 weeks, if she is eligible, she would be on normal social security benefits. But people can’t be released from prison unless they have an address to go to. This can be a real issue and I have known people whose time is up, in fact get as far as the gate house but who cannot be released because they have no address to go.
CES: It sounds like just having enough to live on could be a big concern but is accommodation also a key issue?
Deb: Absolutely. When a woman goes to prison for any length of time, she often loses her home and even her belongings. Women often have little or no money when they are remanded – possibly that is part of why some have committed a crime. Sometimes they don’t even have any ID. If they do have ID on them, such as driver’s license or health card, it frequently runs out before their release. So to get released with no home of her own to go to and only a bus fare and the prospect of surviving on half social security benefits for the next 3 weeks is pretty daunting for any woman. And don’t forget that 91% of women prisoners have a mental health issue, and many are illiterate and have difficulty filling out forms. Add to all this, that once in prison people are quickly institutionalized and it is often some time after release before they can act really independently, you can see the real problem faced by many released women prisoners. Just to fill out all the forms to get back onto social security can be a major traumatic event.
CES: So tell me a bit more about the accommodation issue?
Deb: Some women lose their home while they are in prison. Some women prisoners are living in ACT public housing at the time they are remanded in custody. If the sentence is for, say 12 months, ACT Housing deems the woman to be away too long to retain that accommodation for her, so packs up her belongings and leases the accommodation to some one else.
Women responsible for paying off a mortgage are unlikely to have the funds to continue to make the mortgage repayments and so the bank can foreclose on them. Similarly, women responsible for paying rent just won’t have the income to keep it up. When a woman has shared a home, being away in NSW will often fragment the relationship and lead to a partnership or family break-up. The woman’s partner might leave or move in with some one else. In fact, statistics show that most women in prison had no permanent home before incarceration, possibly living rough on the streets or in a shelter before being remanded.
If a woman has no home of her own to go to and is ready to be released from prison, she is likely to give the name of any one she knows who will help her with their address just to ensure release, even when she knows that at that accommodation she may have real difficulties with the people and it might end up being short-term.
In some cases, a person has no family or friends to call on. There have been times when, as representative of the ACT Women and Prisons Group, I have been called by welfare officers at Berrima and Emu Plains prisons, to see if I can find accommodation for a woman. I have generally been able to negotiate successfully with Canberra women’s refuges for a bed. This has not been easy. The policy of ACT refuges is that a person needing a bed must already be in the ACT area and must go to the refuge or phone each day until there is a vacancy. It is not normally possible to book a bed in advance. I have discussed this gap with two major Canberra women’s refuges recently. They have been supportive and helped so that women being released won’t be turned away. They have been able to bend the rules because they know that the situation will soon change with the opening of the Alexander Maconochie Centre.
CES: Before this support you have negotiated, what would have happened if there were just no beds?
Deb: If there were no beds, the ACT woman could choose to go to a Sydney or NSW refuge but then she still had to get home at some stage.
CES: How important is suitable accommodation for women coming out of prison and back into the community?
Deb: Accommodation is one of many issues faced by women on release from prison but it is absolutely vital. A home is the secure basis of any human’s well-being. If there is no suitable accommodation to go to, the released prisoner may very quickly end up back in the original environment that led to crime or even on the streets. This leaves the woman vulnerable to recidivism.
CES: I think you said that a woman might also lose her belongings when she is in prison or on remand. How does that happen?
Deb: That does often happen, especially if she is living alone. Of course sometimes Women’s Services may help secure her things or family and friends will pack up her belongings and keep them safe. But quite often, once word is out that she is on remand, her house will be broken into and her belongings, including ID, stolen before any one can secure them. If she later gets out of prison with little but what she is wearing, she has to find the money to replace her belongings and some how she has to get enough ID for her 100 points, needed for so many things.
CES: I think the Alexander Maconochie Centre, Canberra’s new prison opens in the middle of the year, doesn’t it? Will the ACT women in NSW be brought back straight away?
Deb: The time-table seems to be for the prison to be handed over to ACT Corrective Services in July. Then in August, a team of male prisoners, low security prisoners, will come back to the ACT as a work team to help set up the prison - furniture, kitchens and so on. I would have thought that then the women would be the next batch of prisoners returned to the ACT but from what we have heard it’s not the case. We have been given to understand that the women will be brought back last. I can’t understand this as women are the primary care givers in families and should be here, close to their families as soon as possible. When they are in NSW they often don’t get to see their children because other family members can’t afford to take the children interstate to visit their mothers. So children are being punished too.
CES: I understand that the ACT prison is planned to be very progressive with a different way of case managing the prisoners. How does that translate into programs that support women when they complete their sentence?
Deb: This is true. The ACT prison will be innovative in a number of ways. Custodial Officers, for example, are to play a different role to that traditionally played in prisons around Australia. Implementation of Through-care is still being discussed.
In a NSW prison, if it is fortunate enough to have case management, it is generally done by Through-care which is set up with welfare officers, where they are available, and community organizations such as Women in Prisons; 12 Step Programs, Women’s Health Service and Christian Groups. People from these sorts of groups give support services inside prison and also after release, if needed.
In Canberra, the new prison won’t have a social worker or a welfare officer. It’s a bit shocking given the importance of human rights. I know how many women rely on social workers or welfare officers in prison. So that will be different from the normal NSW prison culture.
Case management will be through custodial officers. At this stage we are not aware of the part to be played by community organizations in the Through-care program. The underlying idea, I believe, is to recognize that while a person goes to prison for punishment, if they are dehumanized by the experience it will be very hard for them to re‑integrate into the community on release and they will be more vulnerable to recidivism. So in the ACT, the custodial officer will be more than just being the ‘custodian” but will also assist in prisoner rehabilitation.
I find this idea unsettling due to the ‘norm’ prison culture. We have been told that custodial officers are going through a training service that is unique to the ACT. I find it difficult to get my mind around how it will work. Yes, the environment of the new prison is a credit to the ACT government; its structure is very conducive to human rights and environment is a big part, as we all know. So that will change the culture a little bit. Training custodial officers may change the culture a bit. But we also have the culture of the prisoners. Change won’t be an overnight thing. Prisoners will bring the ordinary culture of the different NSW prisons with them. There is also the culture of those we call the silent sentenced ones – the family and friends. None of these cultures will change over night. It’s hard to foresee that, as will be expected, a prisoner will comfortably go to a custodial officer to talk about problems such as being stood-over or that they feel like they are going have a ‘meltdown’ through personal stress. Normally, in other prisons, they would go to a separate case manager about these matters and if a custodial officer heard about such things, the prisoner might be isolated and watched. Such a result is, in effect, a punishment for the stressed person who has spoken up. It will take time for the old mind‑sets of prisoners and custodial officers to change. So I don’t know how truthful prisoners will be with custodial officers.
It is our understanding that community organizations won’t play any part in case management but this is still a bit unclear. Of course once a prisoner is released, if they are not on parole or probation, their will be no further case management.
In the ACT, community organizations will still be able to work with prisoners on rehabilitative programs but it is unclear exactly how their input will work. The government has not given details of this yet even though a lot of planning needs to be conducted within the community organizations if their work is to be effective.
CES: What about the accommodation issue for released women prisoners? At our CES’ April Forum, the Attorney General talked about plans for half-way houses.
Deb: Mr Corbell has talked about transitional accommodation but there doesn’t seem to be a firm plan. There seems to be money in the budget but they haven’t given us a firm background as to how that will work – no details. I’m not convinced that the plans are in place. The Budget identifies $1.5 million for post-release, supported accommodation. On the face of it, that sounds quite substantial. But it is not really, when you think it must cover all released prisoners, probably including remandees and we have the highest rate of remandees in Australia. It is part of $10 million over 4 years. It leaves a lot of room for questions. I raised the matter at the recent ACTCOSS budget forum but I will need to follow this up with the appropriate ministers.
The original plan for the Alexander Maconochie Centre was to include transitional housing – cottages just outside the prison boundary. But I understand there has been a big reduction in the number of beds originally planned – I guess because they were over budget. I think now there may be only 1 or 2 transitional houses. That’s not enough if you want to support people into returning to the community. They will need to find the extra beds some where else in the community.
CES: How long will a person be in transition?
Deb: I have no idea. Their policies aren’t out on this. I have not been able to get details of how long people can stay in transition nor what the policy is. We believe the transition housing is to be for those coming close to the end of their sentence and who have been on good behaviour and can begin to transition into the community through employment.
CES: It sounds like the Government is not allowing time for community input to their policies from concerned community groups.
Deb: I think that is true. They seem to have a lot of policies to still work out. They are talking to community but I don’t feel they are always taking on board what we say and there still seems to be a very long way to go to finalise the plans. The community needs to have input to keep the government grounded.
However, I have been able to have discussions with some key players about a better policy for women who are sentenced for over 12 months. What often happens is that a woman fears losing her public housing while she is in prison so doesn’t let ACT Housing know up front how long she is sentenced for. When ACT Housing doesn’t know how long the person is sentenced for, the accommodation stays vacant for some time. It may then be vandalized. My idea is for ACT Housing to assure the woman that she will be given public housing on release to encourage early advice.
There are several models of how this might work. Either ACT Housing could pack up and secure her belongings till she is released. They would lease her accommodation immediately she is sentenced and then when she is released she could either go back in there or to equivalent accommodation. Another model might be to lease the accommodation to a women’s crisis centre. Housing would still be getting their money and the accommodation would be looked after by a Service. The crisis centre could be responsible for packing up and taking care of the woman’s belongings with some funding being provided for storing. Of course with either of these models, arrangements would need to be made collaboratively with the prisoner.
I have also suggested that ACT Housing try to find a way to reduce the repetitive paper work a released prisoner has to do to get back into the system. This could be further improved by having all such cases looked after by the same administration officer.
CES: Is the ACT Government planning to monitor released prisoners to see if transitional programs have benefited released prisoners?
Deb: The Government can’t really monitor how well released prisoners are doing unless they continue to have a duty of care for them – that is, if the person is on parole or probation. Privacy issues must be respected so it’s hard to set up a data base, say in ACT Housing. But I am sure that there can be monitoring of recidivism rates. NSW Corrective Services would have data on ACT prisoners as does the ACT and this could be used as a benchmark on recidivism. The ACT should start its own data base on recidivism immediately the Alexander Maconochie Centre starts up and our prisoners come back from NSW.
CES: What are we looking at here? The numbers of people that re-offend? The time between release and reoffence? What about factors that contribute to reoffence?
Deb: We need to look at all that. We find that most people that keep going back to prison are in the same circumstances. They might still be on social security benefit, haven’t been able to get a job, haven’t been able to find housing. Where they have found housing, they have outstanding debt and can’t afford or haven’t the ability to know how to pay that off. They fall back into old life style patterns.
Many go to prison with a lot of underpinning issues. The crime is just the tip of the ice berg. They may get drug and alcohol help and counseling while in prison. The drug and alcohol program they are taking in seems to be fantastic. But post trauma stress disorder is a massive issue. We know that 87% of women prisoners have had physical and sexual abuse – mostly before the age of 15 years. Just because a person is an ex-prisoner doesn’t mean that person is a bad person- they often have had bad experiences that keep snowballing. So post-release support is a big thing. The Government knows that - there have been many reports.
CES: Do you have any final words on post release accommodation?
Deb: NSW, QLD and Victoria and possibly WA data show that well-funded, quality post-release programs do contribute to a drastic drop in the percentages of recidivism. The more well-supported a released prisoner, the more ability they have to integrate into society. Accommodation is vital part of a released prisoner’s integration back into the community. Vulnerable and disadvantaged people find it hard to be part of society if they don’t have a roof over their heads. Without that main stability, you don’t live life, you just exist.
CES: Obviously such a new style of prison will take a while to bed down and everything won’t go right initially. Do organizations such as yours have an ongoing role in working with the government to keep it improving?
Deb: Definitely. A lot of thought and effort has gone into this new prison but no policy is ever perfect in the first instance. There will need to be amendments. All policy must be renewed and jiggled. Community input is the way to go. Prisoners don’t trust Corrective Services, government or mainstream services. That culture won’t go away over night. The ACT Women and Prisoner’s Group is about bridging that gap. The Group is run by ex prisoners and supported by Women’s Services who are also part of the Group. We are auspiced by ACTCOSS – they give us a meeting room, help with printing and so on. Prisoners have found they can trust us and tell us the truth of what is happening. We can give really sensible input to policies.
Yes, the ACT Government has a great vision and great aims. It has shown preparedness to dialogue in a spirit of inclusiveness and collaboration but I still believe that in many ways they are looking at it from an academic point of view. Only people with that lived experience can advocate some of the issues from another perspective. Through the ACT Women and Prisons Group, I have the opportunity be the voice of women whose voices are rarely ever heard. It is important to remember that it is not just about being listened to but about being heard. Being heard is what makes the difference. While ever there’s a prison, while ever there’s a woman prisoner, the issues will always be there and will always need an advocate.
About ACT Women and Prisons Group For more information about the ACT Women and Prisons Group please visit our "Prisons - Practical ways you can becoming involved" page.
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